johnthomas
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I hate most drivers, cars are fine.
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I hate cars ... I really do
- Thread starter tdyoung58
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Tophog
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As a general rule, at moderate slow speeds, you can gain 10% of the energy to go back up the same hill at the same speed. At very slow speeds, it's even a bit better. So ~90% loss, right? That will never work!
But now think about this. You have a lot of weight going down at perhaps as high as 10 MPH. Now you go back up the same hill at one MPH with less weight and no regen, you still come out slightly ahead.
So yeah, it is possible. But it would be nice if they gave some real numbers to see exactly how they do it. But a difference in the uphill speed can make the difference compared to the downhill speed.
Even my little Energica motorcycle can charge at above 25,000 watts going down a hill. Think of how many KWs that vehicle gains with all that added weight at a slow speed, going at one tenth that speed back up the same hill with less a lot less weight.
Were you assuming the same speeds going back up the hill? I assumed it would be MUCH slower.
Besides, they should know if they need to recharge or not!
The problem with that article is they didn't give all the technical facts with real useable numbers, such as the KWHs used to go up the hill compared to the KWHs gained going down the same hill with the added weight, when the speeds are MUCH different. So I had to think it out and my conclusion is the same as theirs. Not only is it possible, it is being done!
73, -Don- AA6GA/7
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GlenBaker
Well-known member (.308)
Don don't feel bad some people doesn't believe supercapacitor jump starters really work.
I have used one it worked. Lights on the car would turn on but there wasn't enough power to start the engine. But I left a supercapacitor charger on the battery for 15 minutes and it supplied enough power to turn over the engine briefly and it started. Don't know if there was enough power left in the battery try a second time, if it had not started the first try. You can also hook up the capacitor charger to a running car charge up the capacitors and then transfer that back over to the car needing a jump.
There was a time when lead acid batteries were the only thing around. People could never imagine a small carbon-based battery being put in a portable torch.
Then came alkaline batteries and nickel and now lithium-ion and who knows what's around the corner next.
Who knows in the next 10 years an electric car may be able to accept a 300 mile charge in 10 minutes and charging stations may be as plentiful as gas stations.
Biggest drawback to electric cars right now besides price, are the number of charging stations and the time it takes to charge the car to full capacity.
I have used one it worked. Lights on the car would turn on but there wasn't enough power to start the engine. But I left a supercapacitor charger on the battery for 15 minutes and it supplied enough power to turn over the engine briefly and it started. Don't know if there was enough power left in the battery try a second time, if it had not started the first try. You can also hook up the capacitor charger to a running car charge up the capacitors and then transfer that back over to the car needing a jump.
There was a time when lead acid batteries were the only thing around. People could never imagine a small carbon-based battery being put in a portable torch.
Then came alkaline batteries and nickel and now lithium-ion and who knows what's around the corner next.
Who knows in the next 10 years an electric car may be able to accept a 300 mile charge in 10 minutes and charging stations may be as plentiful as gas stations.
Biggest drawback to electric cars right now besides price, are the number of charging stations and the time it takes to charge the car to full capacity.
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I don't feel bad at all. When I first read the article, I had the exact same thoughts at first, "Something ain't right here, there ain't no free lunch or perpetual motion"....
So then I thought about how it could be possible. Simple, go MUCH slower back up the same hill with less weight. Then there is no perpetual motion issue.
-Don- Reno, NV
I guess you're already on your way, but I was going to ask which way you're going to SF and if you would like to stay overnight at one of my houses, either here in Reno or Auburn. I have a total of 8 bedrooms I don't use! I don't even use the master bedroom at my Auburn house.
Anyway, I am now in Reno, but I will be taking a motorcycle to my Auburn place in a few minutes. Are you on-line as you travel as I always am?
Auburn is ~120 miles from SF. Have fun in that traffic near SF! I try my best to stay away from that area! And I used to live there!
-Don-
Not much of a drawback in a country where the average driver drives less than 40 miles per day and only charges at home and/or work.
I have owned my Tesla for almost three years. I charged it on the street two times in those three years. Both were overnight trips. There are many who have never charged anywhere other than home. And some motels have Tesla Destination chargers. By far, most charging is done while the owners sleep.
However, I have charged my electric motorcycles on the street countless times during the middle of the day. Still not a big deal. I enjoy those breaks and usually do the same as I would do at home anyway, such as post a few messages here or in other forums, check my e-mail and etc. --or have lunch or whatever.
However, now expect the number of charge stations to around double every year in the USA.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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GlenBaker
Well-known member (.308)
I owned a Chevy Volt for two years and it fit my needs almost perfectly. Fix up that was a pain in the a** for me to get in and out of. So I sold it for a comfortable SUV.
But if I need a car to drive up the Salt Lake City or Reno I don't want to have to rent a car or own one that's going to take 11 hours to get up there because it's going to take hours to charge. I don't care if I only make the trip once a year. I buy a vehicle to travel when I want and as far as I want, with out unnecessary wasted time waiting to re fuel.
You may enjoy the extended breaks for charging I Don't. I want get fuel hit the head and go.
I certainly am not going to wait hours for someone else's car to be charged all the chargers are in use. Forget about it isn't happening.
For me it's a 10 to 15 minute Affordable charge cycle with competitive stations. Till then it gas only.
But if I need a car to drive up the Salt Lake City or Reno I don't want to have to rent a car or own one that's going to take 11 hours to get up there because it's going to take hours to charge. I don't care if I only make the trip once a year. I buy a vehicle to travel when I want and as far as I want, with out unnecessary wasted time waiting to re fuel.
You may enjoy the extended breaks for charging I Don't. I want get fuel hit the head and go.
I certainly am not going to wait hours for someone else's car to be charged all the chargers are in use. Forget about it isn't happening.
For me it's a 10 to 15 minute Affordable charge cycle with competitive stations. Till then it gas only.
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Now that I have more time (now in Auburn, no longer rushing to leave Reno) I will go over some other points.
In most cases, it is best to not start at 100% SOC (State of Charge). The charge rate MUST slow down a lot near the top. Same is true at the very bottom of the SOC. Charge to 100% when it is needed for extra range and occasionally at other times for the best cell balancing.
But at least the 100% is at the bottom of the hill, but is it really 100 SOC? Or is that just an indication of where they want it?
Charging more times is faster than charging less times!
. ????Less time will be spent recharging when at 35 % SOC and stopping the charge at 80% SOC. IOW, charge twice for ten minutes each instead of one time for more than 35 minutes to get the exact same miles added at the same type of charger.
The same happens with regen.
Regen power is VERY high in the midrange of the battery. Very low on each end. 80% SOC is too much for the top of the hill. They should try for 50% SOC on top of the hill and less than 80% SOC at the bottom.
But perhaps it indicates 100% SOC at that true 60%. That is an unknown, as we didn't design it. No doubt a lot of this stuff was thought about in the design.
But starting at real 100% SOC is a big waste of energy. You never want to be up there, except then you expect to discharge to below 10% at the end of the trip as you need the full possible range. In fact, regen turns completely off or to almost nothing in EVs when getting close to 100% SOC. The exception is for occasional cell balancing, once in a great while let it charge to full. And then use some of it so it doesn't stay at full too long.
Charging near full very inefficient. If the BMS (Battery Management System which is built into EV batteries) would let it really charge at the full rate near 100% SOC , the battery could catch fire if not explode.
My Tesla gives me a warning when charged to full as soon as I drive "Warning: REGEN temporality suspended".
My Energica says "Warning, no regen!" Get down to 95% and you get SOME regen. Full regen a few miles later, perhaps at 90%.
No regen means the car / bike will coast a lot better, and good coasting is NOT what EV owners expect. It means I will have to use the brake where I normally would not even need to touch it.
Look at the specs of charge times on most EVs. They rate them (let me check a manual here for a real number): "DC Fast Charge, 0-85% SOC in 20 minutes". That is from My Energica motorcycle manual. Now you know why they are rated in that way. They don't want to mention that very slow charge rate above 85% SOC. And it has started to slow down a little at perhaps 75% SOC. Then it's a progressive slowdown from there.
And to add a little more confusion to this issue, no EV battery will be 100% fully charged at 100 SOC. Nor will it be fully discharged at BELOW Zero SOC (there is a reserve) when the EV will no longer run (other than military Evs). EVs made for the military have a switch to use that very last 10 or 15% percent of the real charge (well below the 0 SOC indicated) that will most likely permanently ruin the very expensive battery but could save a life.
There are two specs for KWH on a battery. And some cheating goes on because of this. Zero Motorcycle cheats. Their 14.4 KWH battery can never be charged to that 14.4KWH. The BMS will not allow that very expensive battery to be ruined! It will charge to about 11.6 KWHs according to some battery techs in the electric motorcycle forum.
Energica does not cheat. Their spec reads like this "21.5 kWH max / 18.9 KWH nominal." It will stop being charged when at 18.9 KWH and all of that 18.9 KWH can be used.
73, -Don- AA6GA Auburn, CA
Fogie
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still wouldn't work for me...300 miles is not nearly enough
How about 20 minutes as you take a break?
I also could not tolerate hours to charge, except when at home.
But for now, why not have both, an ICE and an EV?
FWIW, most of my many vehicles (15) are ICE. Only four of that 15 are EVs.
While I will keep the ICE vehicles I now have, I will never buy another, with the possible exception of an RV. I don't think they will make a decent E-RV within my lifetime, but if they do make what I want I will be willing to pay 250K$ or little more for such.
I would say they are about half way there to what I would want in an E-RV. And that is in Europe only. Not available in the USA.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Tophog
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Don,
Thanks for the offer, but we were already on the road. And I don't use (don't know how) my cell phone for internet, I plod along like it's 1995!
Correct, traffic sucks, even on a Sunday! 15 minute standstill south of Gilroy, FOR NO REASON! And another 45 minutes lost after San Jose!
We went south to Baker, then took Hwy 58 to the 101. Didn't know how much time would be lost in the twisty roads to the north. In retrospect, it might have been faster, or at least mellower, to take the northern routes! By the time we hit San Fran I wanted to murder someone, but there were too many targets!
I'd ask to borrow a bike trailer, but have no idea when I could get it back to you.
Regards, Bob
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JTW_Jr
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Like this ?Someone around here in Vegas is driving around with a trike that has a downsized 57 Chevy rear end on it. I don't know if I like it or not but it sure is unusual and neat. Best of both worlds maybe or worst
https://bosshoss.com/57chevy-trike/
If you have a laptop, you can tether your cell. See if you cell has the tether function. I think all the Smartphones do.Thanks for the offer, but we were already on the road. And I don't use (don't know how) my cell phone for internet, I plod along like it's 1995!
Sunday can be one of the worse days in some areas going west to SF. You can see why I am glad to be out of the area I was born and raised in. But the LA area is even worse. The last time I drove to LA, it took a full day to drive out of it.Correct, traffic sucks, even on a Sunday! 15 minute standstill south of Gilroy, FOR NO REASON! And another 45 minutes lost after San Jose!
I would have taken 58 to 99 and and 99 to 5 through Wasco on 46, and 152 to Hwy 101, 280 or 380 to SF. Still won't be all that good in some parts. You don't want to be on 101 when you get very close to SF.
I don't even own one!I'd ask to borrow a bike trailer, but have no idea when I could get it back to you.
So are you buying that HD trike?
-Don- Auburn, CA
GlenBaker
Well-known member (.308)
Too much to even think about remembering.Now that I have more time (now in Auburn, no longer rushing to leave Reno) I will go over some other points.
In most cases, it is best to not start at 100% SOC (State of Charge). The charge rate MUST slow down a lot near the top. Same is true at the very bottom of the SOC. Charge to 100% when it is needed for extra range and occasionally at other times for the best cell balancing.
But at least the 100% is at the bottom of the hill, but is it really 100 SOC? Or is that just an indication of where they want it?
Charging more times is faster than charging less times!
Less time will be spent recharging when at 35 % SOC and stopping the charge at 80% SOC. IOW, charge twice for ten minutes each instead of one time for more than 35 minutes to get the exact same miles added at the same type of charger.
The same happens with regen.
Regen power is VERY high in the midrange of the battery. Very low on each end. 80% SOC is too much for the top of the hill. They should try for 50% SOC on top of the hill and less than 80% SOC at the bottom.
But perhaps it indicates 100% SOC at that true 60%. That is an unknown, as we didn't design it. No doubt a lot of this stuff was thought about in the design.
But starting at real 100% SOC is a big waste of energy. You never want to be up there, except then you expect to discharge to below 10% at the end of the trip as you need the full possible range. In fact, regen turns completely off or to almost nothing in EVs when getting close to 100% SOC. The exception is for occasional cell balancing, once in a great while let it charge to full. And then use some of it so it doesn't stay at full too long.
Charging near full very inefficient. If the BMS (Battery Management System which is built into EV batteries) would let it really charge at the full rate near 100% SOC , the battery could catch fire if not explode.
My Tesla gives me a warning when charged to full as soon as I drive "Warning: REGEN temporality suspended".
My Energica says "Warning, no regen!" Get down to 95% and you get SOME regen. Full regen a few miles later, perhaps at 90%.
No regen means the car / bike will coast a lot better, and good coasting is NOT what EV owners expect. It means I will have to use the brake where I normally would not even need to touch it.
Look at the specs of charge times on most EVs. They rate them (let me check a manual here for a real number): "DC Fast Charge, 0-85% SOC in 20 minutes". That is from My Energica motorcycle manual. Now you know why they are rated in that way. They don't want to mention that very slow charge rate above 85% SOC. And it has started to slow down a little at perhaps 75% SOC. Then it's a progressive slowdown from there.
And to add a little more confusion to this issue, no EV battery will be 100% fully charged at 100 SOC. Nor will it be fully discharged at BELOW Zero SOC (there is a reserve) when the EV will no longer run (other than military Evs). EVs made for the military have a switch to use that very last 10 or 15% percent of the real charge (well below the 0 SOC indicated) that will most likely permanently ruin the very expensive battery but could save a life.
There are two specs for KWH on a battery. And some cheating goes on because of this. Zero Motorcycle cheats. Their 14.4 KWH battery can never be charged to that 14.4KWH. The BMS will not allow that very expensive battery to be ruined! It will charge to about 11.6 KWHs according to some battery techs in the electric motorcycle forum.
Energica does not cheat. Their spec reads like this "21.5 kWH max / 18.9 KWH nominal." It will stop being charged when at 18.9 KWH and all of that 18.9 KWH can be used.
73, -Don- AA6GA Auburn, CA
Gas 1/4 tank left fill to top at next station 7 minutes or a little more if you have a big tank.
Stop for lunch top off tank, won't hurt a darn thing, just the added weight of a full tank of gas.
Stop to pee, unless it by the side of the road or a rest stop fill the tank it's only going to take around 7 minutes and you're on road again.
What you don't want to do is to allow the gas tank to become empty. The gas actually cools the fuel pump in the tank, so some gas left in the tank is good for the fuel pump.
GlenBaker
Well-known member (.308)
I didn't get a good look, it was red, yea it sure could have been a bosshoss. I didn't get a good look at the engine so I really can't say.
Couple years ago I saw one that had a Corvette back end on it.
Tophog
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Already put a deposit on it.
Getting the truck AC serviced, then it's off to the races!
I assume that means you are going back to SF again to pick up the bike. If an over night stop will be helpful in Auburn or Reno (or both) let me know. Or if you need anything on the way there are back, etc.
What part of SF is the trike in? BTW, what engine is in it and what year?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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The bike is in So. San Fran, just past the airport.
We're probably taking the 5 up and cross over to the 101 at Los Banos. It's the shortest, (as if there were any), way. Won't be anywhere near Auburn.
It's a 2002 Ultra Classic w/ 43k miles, but the engine was rebuilt at 40k. 95 inch, big bore kit, Lehman kit w/ independent suspension. Baker 6 speed w/ reverse, etc. All receipts since new.
Not a scratch. Washed and waxed every month. Looks brand new.
I used to live in SSF, just north of the airport. Zip 94080. The very base of San Bruno Mountain (the hill you see as you drive north).
Yeah, HWY 152 isn't bad these days. Back in the early 1970's it was the most dangerous road in all of CA. But now it's all divided and safe. My closest call ever was on that road back then. I went around a curve and a truck was passing another truck blocking the entire road. I went between the two trucks, expecting to be killed on my new 1971 BMW R75/5. I think I came within two or three inches of both trucks. Much more scary than anything I experienced in the infantry in Vietnam, just before then.
Yeah, that is a good way to go, as long as there are no reports of fog on I-5. Take 99N to 46W to Wasco, and I-5N to Hwy 152W as I mentioned before. If there is a report of fog on I-5, stay on 99 north instead, to 120W to 205W to 580W to 17S. Then south a few miles on 17S to the San Mateo Bridge to get to Hwy 101N. By then you're quite close to SSF.
I-5 in the fog is extremely dangerous and very few places to get off the freeway.
Why would the engine need a rebuild at 40K miles?
Usually a reverse is not needed in a trike. But I wish my 2017 RoadGlide (M8 engine) had a reverse! That thing is around 1,000 lbs.
-Don- Auburn, CA
