LVMPD Shoot Footage

5.56 AP

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#1
Guess the big mistake these two officers both made (in my mind). And it's not a tactical MMQ either.

 

doz

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#2
Guess the big mistake these two officers both made (in my mind). And it's not a tactical MMQ either.

Im sure adrenaline is high, but jesus.... 2nd cop was drawn and never lowered weapon in an active shooting situation when he was behind his partner.

2nd major screw-up was firing that many shots and not having a dead suspect.

He could have easily used the parked car in the driveway as cover, had clear line of sight with cover, and not had to take running shots as well. LVMPD is lucky that most of these incidents happen with 'tards who have weapons but do not practice with them. Make these mistakes with someone who can actually do damage and more cops would end up dead.

He also took all that time to holster his spent mag rather than just drop the mag and insert a new one.
 
#3
I'm in tacmed mode due to class tomorrow, so I'll offer this:
Try not to get into other people's fluids bare handed if you can avoid it. Glove up if you have 'em.
That said, that was massive, life threatening bleeding so kudos to them for gettin' on it.

Second, notice the fumble with putting a tourniquet on under extreme stress. I'm really glad that Metro gives their guys TQs and (I'm told) some training, but if it was like most med training, I suspect he had only had a chance to apply it in practice a few times.
Practice with your life saving gear. Seemingly simple tasks go to hell under a massive adrenaline dump.
 

Glocksterpaulie

The Perfectionist
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#4
I bet the hit to how many rounds fired is not good. Glad metro has a hefty insurance policy because who knows where the missed rounds ended up.

We fire that many rounds to stop a threat and you better have a case of KY handy.

Paulie
 

Glocksterpaulie

The Perfectionist
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#6
Like Chuck said some mistakes were made when the SHTF. Couple of big ones for me is them muzzling each other, that standing and just getting into a GF and may the best man win.

They need a lot of videos like this in the academy so rookies can critique them and learn from it.

Paulie
 

5.56 AP

Guest
#7
Chuck nailed what I saw; no rubber gloves.

Metro provides gloves, so I'm sure they had them. You just have to train out the instinct to help first and train in rescuer safety as the first priority. Especially when dealing with strangers.
 
#8
The RJ article says 26 shots were fired by the officers and they hit the suspect 19 times, and he's still alive in the hospital! I don't want to start those caliber wars but 19 hits and he still lived?

Also said the two officers were a trainee and his field service trainer.
 

Gunhand

Firearms Instructor
#9
A couple of things I see, first these officers engaged in a foot pursuit after multiple subjects, so taking cover behind any vehicle there was just not a prudent thing to do. Sure they didn't get far, but until the suspect pulled a gun and fired it was a foot pursuit.

Second, I read a lot of people commenting on how "bad" the 26 rounds fired, and 19 hit the suspect was. I'm sure most of those people have never been in a real gunfight. It's entirely different when the targets shoot back.

And finally, handgun bullets are NOT great "manstoppers". We carry a handgun because it's easier than carrying a rifle. I do not know where the round struck this suspect, but if the officers did not render immediate first aid, he would have no doubt died at the scene. I personally would never stick my bare hands into the bodily fluids of some suspect, but they did save his life. Had they not, the media would have crucified them!!
 

doz

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#10
A couple of things I see, first these officers engaged in a foot pursuit after multiple subjects, so taking cover behind any vehicle there was just not a prudent thing to do. Sure they didn't get far, but until the suspect pulled a gun and fired it was a foot pursuit.
Not trying to battle, but educate me on it.

The first shot from the suspect was during the foot pursuit. He fired the first shot when the officer in the front was approaching the parked car. The officer actually fired multiple shots as well prior to passing the parked car in the driveway.

At that time, the suspect was pinned at the gate and his only "out" so to speak would be to return fire if he wanted to, potentially hitting the officers who were completely vulnerable. Not only that, the woman on the left was pretty much ignored and potentially could have had a weapon and fired upon the officers as well (we all remember the Walmart shooting, right?).

Just curious as you have the experience. And my only comment on the shooting is shot placement. Put one in his ****ing head. With that many rounds fired, take the time to aim just once. Pretty sure we can all hit a headshot with a guy laying on the ground from 20-30 ft.
 

totenschadel

Active member
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#11
Put one in his ****ing head. With that many rounds fired, take the time to aim just once. Pretty sure we can all hit a headshot with a guy laying on the ground from 20-30 ft.
Officer probably considered it, then remebered he had his lapel camera running and new it wouldnt bode well during the inquest.
 

billsliv

Obsessed Member
#12
19 hits out of 26 (73%) is outstanding, given the conditions. Administering life saving first aid deserves a commendation. I won't wait until they release their results of their investigation to jump to those conclusions.

What is hard to believe is someone surviving being shot 18 times at fairly close range.
 

Glocksterpaulie

The Perfectionist
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#13
I get what others are saying. Hit ratio is good, I would definitely glove up first. I still think they need to move, if no cover then move. Lucky for these guys the guy wasn't spraying and praying.

Paulie
 

Gunhand

Firearms Instructor
#14
Not trying to battle, but educate me on it.

The first shot from the suspect was during the foot pursuit. He fired the first shot when the officer in the front was approaching the parked car. The officer actually fired multiple shots as well prior to passing the parked car in the driveway.

At that time, the suspect was pinned at the gate and his only "out" so to speak would be to return fire if he wanted to, potentially hitting the officers who were completely vulnerable. Not only that, the woman on the left was pretty much ignored and potentially could have had a weapon and fired upon the officers as well (we all remember the Walmart shooting, right?).

Just curious as you have the experience. And my only comment on the shooting is shot placement. Put one in his ****ing head. With that many rounds fired, take the time to aim just once. Pretty sure we can all hit a headshot with a guy laying on the ground from 20-30 ft.
Headshots on the range are easy to do. Now do it when there are rounds fired, and it isn't so easy. I know certain training facilities say they can train you to that level, they leave out one very important factor. The fact that you are under the forces of life and death stresses that just can not be duplicated on any range.

As far as passing cover, remember these officers were probably at a full head of steam on the initial foot pursuit, so stopping from a full run is pretty difficult.

They did have multiple suspects they were chasing three or four i believe. They did address the one female suspect on the ground, but they concentrated on the most dangerous threat, a wounded, armed suspect. Then they rendered life saving first aid to the suspect. Yes, they bobbled the application of the tourniquet, but they had just been in a gunfight for their lives. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for that very small faux pah.

At the end of the day two officers performed very well, and one less SCUMBAG is on the street. WELL DONE Officers!!
 

doz

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#15
Headshots on the range are easy to do. Now do it when there are rounds fired, and it isn't so easy. I know certain training facilities say they can train you to that level, they leave out one very important factor. The fact that you are under the forces of life and death stresses that just can not be duplicated on any range.

As far as passing cover, remember these officers were probably at a full head of steam on the initial foot pursuit, so stopping from a full run is pretty difficult.

They did have multiple suspects they were chasing three or four i believe. They did address the one female suspect on the ground, but they concentrated on the most dangerous threat, a wounded, armed suspect. Then they rendered life saving first aid to the suspect. Yes, they bobbled the application of the tourniquet, but they had just been in a gunfight for their lives. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for that very small faux pah.

At the end of the day two officers performed very well, and one less SCUMBAG is on the street. WELL DONE Officers!!
Yeah, I wasnt referring to instant headshot, I was just saying at the end of the magazine :) I understand that under stress, coupled with adrenaline and running, it is VERY tough. Save us all some tax dollars.
 

Gunhand

Firearms Instructor
#16
Yeah, I wasnt referring to instant headshot, I was just saying at the end of the magazine :) I understand that under stress, coupled with adrenaline and running, it is VERY tough. Save us all some tax dollars.
Well if the suspect is down, and badly wounded, (which he was) and then the officer put one in his brain pan, that would be called an execution. We can all wish the guy wasn't going to be a ward of the taxpayers for many years, but no officer wants to commit a murder.
 

Felid'Maximus

Beware of Cat
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#17
19 hits out of 26 (73%) is outstanding, given the conditions. Administering life saving first aid deserves a commendation. I won't wait until they release their results of their investigation to jump to those conclusions.

What is hard to believe is someone surviving being shot 18 times at fairly close range.

I agree the officers exhibited outstanding performance in this incident from what we see in the video. The quick jump to first aid makes the officers appear very compassionate, unlike in other cases where a man is shot by police and the police prevent the ambulance from getting through to help the guy and he dies.

I do not find it hard to believe that the man survived being shot 18 times though. The guy *would* have probably died if it was not for that tourniquet and the subsequent rush to the hospital. Only through the miracle of modern medicine are the wounds survivable.

I've seen many videos and read many stories where humans absorb many rounds. The human body is very resilient even in the face of extreme physiological damage.

The RJ article says 26 shots were fired by the officers and they hit the suspect 19 times, and he's still alive in the hospital! I don't want to start those caliber wars but 19 hits and he still lived?

Also said the two officers were a trainee and his field service trainer.
I don't know what caliber was used here, but if you look up Timothy Gramins, 14 rounds of .45 ACP JHP failed to bring down the guy he was shooting.

The problem is that there is no magic bullet. Everyone tries to sell new bullets as magic bullets, talks about how much better modern JHP is than old lead round nose bullets, how much better a .45 is than a .22... The thing is, every time a small bullet or non-expanding bullet doesn't incapacitate someone instantly, the magic bullet crowd immediately says, "this incident proves it"... and then every time a big fat expanding bullet also doesn't work the magic bullet crowd simply ignores it.

When it comes down to it, where the bullet penetrates to is far more important than the diameter of the bullet. That's not to say that some bullets aren't better than other bullets. Only that there is far too much undue emphasis on caliber and far too little on factors that are actually play a bigger role. Only in very rare cases will two different bullets fired to the same point of impact not produce nearly the same result. And even then most of the time it is because a bullet goes too shallow, not because a bullet was too narrow and missed something important by 0.1".

The most important thing is to have a lot of bullets and to make them hit important things.
 

5.56 AP

Guest
#18
It's all about shot placement. From what I've heard he was hit at least in the leg, hand and face. Those would all suck, but won't immediately incapacitate you.

These officers went above and beyond what they needed to by saving this guys life. Kudos. I still wouldn't dive into someone else's blood with no PPE.

If you shoot someone you're under no legal obligation to give them first aid. It may be in your best interest to, but maybe not (such as in this case).

It would suck to survive an encounter in the street only to catch some horrible disease.

That's my opinion anyway.
 
#19
I didn't mean to come across like a jerk. I really, really applaud both of these officers for what they did including trying to save a live. I was just personally amazed that the suspect survived after being hit that many times. I have thought many times that some CCW holders were a bit over the top to everyday carry a G19 with 3 extra mags and G26 for backup. In fact I have commented to LEO friend of mine when I saw a video of a Metro commencement ceremony that all the new officers were packing 3 to 4 extra mags in their duty belt, that was sure a lot of ammo to be carrying. But now after watching that video, I think I may have been wrong. Considering the stress of the situation, many rounds missing the intended target may be the norm, and having a few extra rounds available might not be such a bad idea. I will still practice and practice to make sure my each and every one of my shots hits the bullseye but I will rethink what I everyday carry in the future.
And again I reiterate, I was only shocked at the outcome NOT the heroism of the officers involved.
 
#20
I bet the hit to how many rounds fired is not good. Glad metro has a hefty insurance policy because who knows where the missed rounds ended up.

We fire that many rounds to stop a threat and you better have a case of KY handy.

Paulie

Did you forget one of the firearm safety rules?

That is an awesome backdrop for pistols. A brick wall can stop quite a bit.

You wouldn't need a case of KY. You would need a spare mag. :2guns: