How much is it worth?Defensive HG Education

Benda · 09-20-2009, 03:58 PM

I would like to ask the forum for a candid opinion. By candid, I mean realistic as well. Last I looked, I am not round and in a Red Suit.

For quality defensive education on a 3 day basis what do you consider a fair tuition for 3 day new shooter? 3 day intermediate shooter? and 3 day expert shooter in the Handgun discipline.

I am extremely receptive to the current state of affairs that affects us all. At the same time, we all know you get what you pay for. I would not send my loved one to a class that taught just enough to get them killed in response to a career criminal aggressively assaulting them.

When the gun presents the situation escalates. Good people raised the right way have a kindness that is innate and must be dialed down by training.
So, with those things considered, what would you expect to pay/afford?

I appreciate the time you folks take to answer this question. If I could make all the bills go away I would teach during these upsetting times for gas money.

Facejackets · 09-20-2009, 04:31 PM

I think it depends on a number of things. Mainly, what qualifications the intructor has.

Also, attitude of the intructor, range set up, come to mind.

I am more willing to fork out cash for a teacher who is easy going, and patient.

Benda · 09-20-2009, 05:17 PM

Assuming you had a professional educator comfortable in articulating to a varied group and oriented to performance based instead of time based. Assume the skill level is what you would expect from a professional. So with a level field, take me to school on this market. From Oct to Dec I will do $70 per day. Jan when Park opens price will never exceed 150 per day. The staff is first tier by all standards. Allow me the benefit of the doubt for the purpose of getting a benchmark. I do appreciate you taking the time.
Thanks John Pierson

Phoebe · 09-20-2009, 11:16 PM

This is more than just answering your direction question. I hope it's helpful.

As you may know, I'm very new to this. Near as I can figure, price vs what you get, seems like it may have no relation.

In fact, I have found it nearly impossible to evaluate 2-3 day offerings.

What I want to see (and never do) is:
1) prerequisites - what am I expected to already know in order to successfully make use of the course?
2) curriculum - what will we study during each day of the course? I'd like this in some detail
3) qualifications - what are the instructors qualifications and why should I spend my money learning from that person?
4) what will I be capable of at the end of the class?

2 or 3-day offerings seem to be in the $350 range. Front Sight is significantly more, but even their 3-day is available for about $300. So, I suppose that has set my expectations about pricing.

I have not noted any significant difference between beginner vs intermediate class prices.

I assume that people who know how, may still not be worthwhile teachers.
I assume that many who teach are good shooters but have no real SD knowledge or experience.
I have noticed that every man who has ever fired a weapon thinks he knows how to shoot. So I wonder how many of those guys end up trying to teach.

Lastly, I am still looking for a handgun SD class. I'm probably going to take the Corinna (someone) one from SI. But my gripe is the same as it has been with anything. No clue who the instructor is or why she's qualified to teach, no clue what is taught, no clue why I should go in that direction vs any other option. (I know some SI folks are on this board, so feel free to tell me here or via pm...but I sure cannot find any info on that particular course.)

Jim Fuller · 09-20-2009, 11:27 PM

At Suarez International our classes run 100-200.00 a day depending on the class. This is about the industry standard for top level civilian training as a group.
Private one on one training will go much higher.

Benda · 09-21-2009, 02:16 AM

Jim, how are you? Good to see you on this thread. I remember good times.
Drop a line when you can. John Pierson

For those of you interested, I did respond to Phoebe. However, the topic demands a complete and connected response which would take considerable space. The question of value vs cost has been around for ages and an integral part of all things/services sold, traded etc.

I would be pleased to share our philosophy and educational methodology with anyone that is interested. For the sake of the forum may I suggest you message me one to one so I can respond directly to you and avoid a diversion on this thread.

I posed my question to get a feel for how much of a crunch everyone is under with the present economical climate. Hopefully, with some input we can strike a good balance

Roger Phillips · 09-21-2009, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Lastly, I am still looking for a handgun SD class. I'm probably going to take the Corinna (someone) one from SI. But my gripe is the same as it has been with anything. No clue who the instructor is or why she's qualified to teach, no clue what is taught, no clue why I should go in that direction vs any other option. (I know some SI folks are on this board, so feel free to tell me here or via pm...but I sure cannot find any info on that particular course.)

Phoebe, Since you are new to all of this, you will not know everyones reputation. I know guys that have researched where to train for a year before they decided what was best for them. Many people will tell you that they are the best or that their instructor is the best. That is simply the way it is inside of this industry. The only way that you are going to know is do the research and find out what fits you.

About Suarez International
http://www.suarezinternationalstore....n=Custom&ID=10

The schedule
http://www.suarezinternational.com/tech.html

The course
http://www.suarezinternationalstore....ROD&ProdID=650

The instructor
http://www.suarezinternationalstore....&ID=25#ccoplin

Warriortalk forum (this is probably the number one Gun Forum for quality information, from true professionals, with the absolute best behavior. You will need to register)
http://www.warriortalk.com/

Female Warrior section (you can ask Corrina questions here)
http://www.warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=42

Chuck Burnett · 09-21-2009, 04:34 AM

So, Roger.
I'm not sure I'm getting you.
Could you be more specific?

Phoebe · 09-21-2009, 05:08 AM

Roger, it's worse than that!!

Everyone tells me how much everyone else stinks!!

It's ridiculous.

I have serious, immediate, real-life security concerns and I can't get through the machismo to figure out what makes sense for me to pursue. :-(

I don't know that I have time to sort through everyone's reputation and I don't know that I have money to just throw around.

I have had a pm from someone, giving me very explicit info on his credentials.

I don't understand why that's so uncommon. I don't know how a newcomer is supposed to evaluate a given instructor when half the people scream, "they're great" and the other half scream, "they're awful...it's me that's great!"

p.s. I'm fairly certain of wanting to take Corrine's class, but then run into people telling me why I should take their class instead. I end up spinning in circles.

Phoebe · 09-21-2009, 05:37 AM

p.s. this board is awesome!

Ask for info, and info you shall receive.

09-20-2009, 03:58 PM	#1
Benda guardian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 14 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	How much is it worth?Defensive HG Education I would like to ask the forum for a candid opinion. By candid, I mean realistic as well. Last I looked, I am not round and in a Red Suit. For quality defensive education on a 3 day basis what do you consider a fair tuition for 3 day new shooter? 3 day intermediate shooter? and 3 day expert shooter in the Handgun discipline. I am extremely receptive to the current state of affairs that affects us all. At the same time, we all know you get what you pay for. I would not send my loved one to a class that taught just enough to get them killed in response to a career criminal aggressively assaulting them. When the gun presents the situation escalates. Good people raised the right way have a kindness that is innate and must be dialed down by training. So, with those things considered, what would you expect to pay/afford? I appreciate the time you folks take to answer this question. If I could make all the bills go away I would teach during these upsetting times for gas money. __________________ John "Empower yourself to give your best when it is needed most"

09-20-2009, 04:31 PM	#2
Facejackets Low Speed High Drag Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,227 Mentioned: 1 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	I think it depends on a number of things. Mainly, what qualifications the intructor has. Also, attitude of the intructor, range set up, come to mind. I am more willing to fork out cash for a teacher who is easy going, and patient. __________________ Certified GLOCK Armorer NRA Certified RSO USPSA Member

09-20-2009, 05:17 PM	#3
Benda guardian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 14 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	whats it worth Assuming you had a professional educator comfortable in articulating to a varied group and oriented to performance based instead of time based. Assume the skill level is what you would expect from a professional. So with a level field, take me to school on this market. From Oct to Dec I will do $70 per day. Jan when Park opens price will never exceed 150 per day. The staff is first tier by all standards. Allow me the benefit of the doubt for the purpose of getting a benchmark. I do appreciate you taking the time. Thanks John Pierson __________________ John "Empower yourself to give your best when it is needed most"

09-20-2009, 11:27 PM	#5
Jim Fuller Rifle Dynamics 07FFL/SOT Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Las Vegas Nv. Posts: 1,440 Mentioned: 6 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	At Suarez International our classes run 100-200.00 a day depending on the class. This is about the industry standard for top level civilian training as a group. Private one on one training will go much higher. __________________ Rifle Dynamics 07FFL/SOT www.Rifledynamics.com www.ATACTV.com http://www.jimfuller.me/index.php Sign Up For Our Newsletter

09-21-2009, 02:16 AM	#6
Benda guardian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 14 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	How much is it worth Jim, how are you? Good to see you on this thread. I remember good times. Drop a line when you can. John Pierson For those of you interested, I did respond to Phoebe. However, the topic demands a complete and connected response which would take considerable space. The question of value vs cost has been around for ages and an integral part of all things/services sold, traded etc. I would be pleased to share our philosophy and educational methodology with anyone that is interested. For the sake of the forum may I suggest you message me one to one so I can respond directly to you and avoid a diversion on this thread. I posed my question to get a feel for how much of a crunch everyone is under with the present economical climate. Hopefully, with some input we can strike a good balance __________________ John "Empower yourself to give your best when it is needed most"

09-20-2009, 11:16 PM	#4
Phoebe Very Active Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 426 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	This is more than just answering your direction question. I hope it's helpful. As you may know, I'm very new to this. Near as I can figure, price vs what you get, seems like it may have no relation. In fact, I have found it nearly impossible to evaluate 2-3 day offerings. What I want to see (and never do) is: 1) prerequisites - what am I expected to already know in order to successfully make use of the course? 2) curriculum - what will we study during each day of the course? I'd like this in some detail 3) qualifications - what are the instructors qualifications and why should I spend my money learning from that person? 4) what will I be capable of at the end of the class? 2 or 3-day offerings seem to be in the $350 range. Front Sight is significantly more, but even their 3-day is available for about $300. So, I suppose that has set my expectations about pricing. I have not noted any significant difference between beginner vs intermediate class prices. I assume that people who know how, may still not be worthwhile teachers. I assume that many who teach are good shooters but have no real SD knowledge or experience. I have noticed that every man who has ever fired a weapon thinks he knows how to shoot. So I wonder how many of those guys end up trying to teach. Lastly, I am still looking for a handgun SD class. I'm probably going to take the Corinna (someone) one from SI. But my gripe is the same as it has been with anything. No clue who the instructor is or why she's qualified to teach, no clue what is taught, no clue why I should go in that direction vs any other option. (I know some SI folks are on this board, so feel free to tell me here or via pm...but I sure cannot find any info on that particular course.)

09-21-2009, 04:34 AM	#8
Chuck Burnett Invictus Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 888 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	So, Roger. I'm not sure I'm getting you. Could you be more specific? __________________ "The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt." John Philpot Curran

09-21-2009, 05:08 AM	#9
Phoebe Very Active Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 426 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Roger, it's worse than that!! Everyone tells me how much everyone else stinks!! It's ridiculous. I have serious, immediate, real-life security concerns and I can't get through the machismo to figure out what makes sense for me to pursue. :-( I don't know that I have time to sort through everyone's reputation and I don't know that I have money to just throw around. I have had a pm from someone, giving me very explicit info on his credentials. I don't understand why that's so uncommon. I don't know how a newcomer is supposed to evaluate a given instructor when half the people scream, "they're great" and the other half scream, "they're awful...it's me that's great!" p.s. I'm fairly certain of wanting to take Corrine's class, but then run into people telling me why I should take their class instead. I end up spinning in circles.

09-21-2009, 05:37 AM	#10
Phoebe Very Active Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 426 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	p.s. this board is awesome! Ask for info, and info you shall receive.

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