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Old 01-10-2017, 03:40 PM   #11
Just an Average Joe
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I have done several transfers with several dealers since they have been collecting sales tax.


They seemed all too happy to collect it - I usually pay in cash also.


I got the vibe that they may have been pocketing all or part of the "sales tax".
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Old 01-10-2017, 07:12 PM   #12
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I have done several transfers with several dealers since they have been collecting sales tax.


They seemed all too happy to collect it - I usually pay in cash also.


I got the vibe that they may have been pocketing all or part of the "sales tax".
I hope you have proof of those allegations. I work at 2nd Amendment and we have to collect sales tax it's the law. We tried to stop it last legislative session but we couldn't. This session nothing good regarding gun rights is going to pass. So until the law changes we have to print a separate receipt so we can prove we collected the tax. WE KEEP NONE OF THAT MONEY.
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:04 PM   #13
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I hope you have proof of those allegations. I work at 2nd Amendment and we have to collect sales tax it's the law. We tried to stop it last legislative session but we couldn't. This session nothing good regarding gun rights is going to pass. So until the law changes we have to print a separate receipt so we can prove we collected the tax. WE KEEP NONE OF THAT MONEY.
They aren't "allegations". There is no burden of proof, we are not in a court of law, and I have not "slandered" anyone.

The fact that you are a worker (not even an owner?) of ONE shop out of dozens in the valley hardly makes you an expert on the level of honesty and compliance of the dozens of other shops in the valley.

The very nature of this requirement makes it prone to abuse. No "proof" of how much was paid for a transferred firearm, just the transferee saying "I paid "X" dollars". When I pay tax on a $1000 gunbroker purchase that comes with no paperwork, and I pay the shop roughly $82 in tax, what is to keep them from entering $300 in the books, and only $25 tax collected? This is also compounded by the fact that many if not most gun shop purchases are in cash, as many shops charge a 3-4% "fee" for using a credit card, and I would also assume many guys like to buy using cash as a means of circumventing the "wife purchase monitor/approval" inherent in credit card or check purchases.



I also stopped FAR short of naming any specific shops.


I stated exactly what I felt.

Would be interesting to see what other forum member experiences have been.
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just an Average Joe View Post
They aren't "allegations". There is no burden of proof, we are not in a court of law, and I have not "slandered" anyone.

The fact that you are a worker (not even an owner?) of ONE shop out of dozens in the valley hardly makes you an expert on the level of honesty and compliance of the dozens of other shops in the valley.

The very nature of this requirement makes it prone to abuse. No "proof" of how much was paid for a transferred firearm, just the transferee saying "I paid "X" dollars". When I pay tax on a $1000 gunbroker purchase that comes with no paperwork, and I pay the shop roughly $82 in tax, what is to keep them from entering $300 in the books, and only $25 tax collected? This is also compounded by the fact that many if not most gun shop purchases are in cash, as many shops charge a 3-4% "fee" for using a credit card, and I would also assume many guys like to buy using cash as a means of circumventing the "wife purchase monitor/approval" inherent in credit card or check purchases.



I also stopped FAR short of naming any specific shops.


I stated exactly what I felt.

Would be interesting to see what other forum member experiences have been.
I'm a home based FFL and I collect the tax for the state. I know there other home based FFLs out there that are still not collecting the tax.

I have not received a tax audit yet, and probably the guys who aren't collecting the tax have not yet either.



Sometimes the seller will send a receipt with the gun, but even if they do not, I have every person who I transfer a gun sign a receipt saying how much they paid the third party and how much tax I collected. I don't know for sure if it is always correct as both the seller could send a faulty receipt or the buyer could attest to a faulty amount, but I can't see why a signed receipt from the buyer should be any less valid than a receipt from the seller which is impossible for a dealer to obtain sometimes. If the dealer wants to pocket the tax he'll probably need to forge receipts too. The FFL also has to log in and out any gun they transfer so it would be difficult to pretend a transaction never happened.

I don't claim enough revenue to have to pay the margins tax, but the dumb thing is the margins tax is also based on the price you paid the seller rather than the amount I collected too. So if I was subject to a margins tax, I would be paying a margins tax on not the amount of tax I got but the amount of money you paid the third party.

That also counts as revenue for calculating the cost of a business license, and the business license fee is higher depending on revenue too, in brackets. (So in a way, we practically had a lite version of a revenue tax even before the margins tax passed). The more "fake" revenue a dealer reports to collect sales taxes on, the more the state says he needs to pay the state out of what he keeps for himself. I bet for gun shops, some of them are paying the margins tax that the government only claimed big businesses would be paying because on paper they are reporting millions in revenue even though most of that money never actually crossed their hands.

There are no upsides to collecting the tax as a seller that I can see, except that you don't get shafted by the government when they do an audit and find out you have not been collecting tax as required.
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:59 PM   #15
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Thanks for the insight Felid.


Looks like yet another example of government creating a huge hassle for small businesses.

Appreciate the info on documentation/books etc, but the fact that you personally know of some FFL's that are not even collecting the tax, which has been on the books for well over a year, goes to my point about this law being difficult to enforce, and therefore prone to not only non-compliance, but abuse.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:34 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Just an Average Joe View Post
They aren't "allegations". There is no burden of proof, we are not in a court of law, and I have not "slandered" anyone.

The fact that you are a worker (not even an owner?) of ONE shop out of dozens in the valley hardly makes you an expert on the level of honesty and compliance of the dozens of other shops in the valley.

The very nature of this requirement makes it prone to abuse. No "proof" of how much was paid for a transferred firearm, just the transferee saying "I paid "X" dollars". When I pay tax on a $1000 gunbroker purchase that comes with no paperwork, and I pay the shop roughly $82 in tax, what is to keep them from entering $300 in the books, and only $25 tax collected? This is also compounded by the fact that many if not most gun shop purchases are in cash, as many shops charge a 3-4% "fee" for using a credit card, and I would also assume many guys like to buy using cash as a means of circumventing the "wife purchase monitor/approval" inherent in credit card or check purchases.



I also stopped FAR short of naming any specific shops.


I stated exactly what I felt.

Would be interesting to see what other forum member experiences have been.
I never claimed to be an expert on other shops, I just know our shop does not pocket any sales tax money. You were alleging some shops might be pocketing the money. If that were the case and the shop got caught then they would be in big trouble. If you are not honest in this business eventually you will be gone.
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:01 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by teammazza View Post
I never claimed to be an expert on other shops, I just know our shop does not pocket any sales tax money. You were alleging some shops might be pocketing the money. If that were the case and the shop got caught then they would be in big trouble. If you are not honest in this business eventually you will be gone.

See the other posts in this thread, both mine and Felid's. It should be apparent that enforcement, and thus "catching" any shop violating these laws is difficult at best. But then, as a gun shop employee, you should be aware of this.

What you did state, however, made it sound as though you were an attorney threatening a lawsuit. Why would you "hope" that I have proof of those "allegations".



Quote:
Originally Posted by teammazza View Post
I hope you have proof of those allegations. .
Common sense, and a basic understanding of human monetary motivation should make it clear that not 100% of the FFL's in this state are complying completely with being tax collectors for the state.

Even Felid is aware of fellow FFL's who are not collecting the tax, which frankly I applaud - and which is much different than pocketing customers "tax" money, which one would be naive to believe NEVER happens.

Again, I welcome the thoughts, experiences, and impressions of other forum members regarding this issue, specifically with regard to sales tax collection on out of state transferred firearms.
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Old 01-11-2017, 06:43 AM   #18
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Again, throwing around allegations that several gun stores are pocketing the money is a very serious charge. I was just wondering if you had any proof of this dishonest practice going on or are you just stating your opinion? Was the "vibe" you got someone putting the money in their pocket or just charging you to be *******s? This could be a huge scandal, you could expose this underhanded practice for the world to see. Better yet you could call the state tax office and maybe get a piece of the action if they bust some gun stores.
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Old 01-11-2017, 03:39 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by teammazza View Post
Again, throwing around allegations that several gun stores are pocketing the money is a very serious charge. I was just wondering if you had any proof of this dishonest practice going on or are you just stating your opinion? Was the "vibe" you got someone putting the money in their pocket or just charging you to be *******s? This could be a huge scandal, you could expose this underhanded practice for the world to see. Better yet you could call the state tax office and maybe get a piece of the action if they bust some gun stores.
Such drama.


I was very clear in my initial, and subsequent posts.


Apparently that went completely over your head.


Yes, you are a gun store employee, which imbues you with special powers to stand up for truth, justice, and the American way.


Obviously anybody who thinks that there is NOT complete compliance, and that some gun shops are taking advantage of the situation deserves to be prosecuted for such allegations (and we ALL know that gun shops are just the greatest guys and NEVER gouge or take advantage of panic buys, etc - *cough* *cough* Newtown...... *cough* Obama's election and reelection.....)



Stop trying to turn my statements into something they are NOT, specifically, a call to investigate and prosecute FFL's. They have enough hassles from the government as it is. Funny how a gun shop commando like yourself sounds like such a lover of big government intruding into private business. You sound like you supported question 1, as you obviously are quick to leap to the "call the state tax office" rather than allowing other forum members to voice their experiences and opinions as CUSTOMERS, which you are NOT. You were certainly quick to try to shut down my speech with your threatening talk of "allegations", and "hope you have proof", which is the kind of language used by those threatening legal action to silence others.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:11 PM   #20
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There was no threats here and you can personally attack me all you want. But throwing around allegations that gun stores are cheating their customers and the State at the same time are pretty major. But since you have no proof, we are all clear it's just your opinion.
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