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Old 11-22-2017, 01:19 AM   #11
SUBMOA
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Originally Posted by NYECOGunsmith View Post
You can not build a firearm for yourself and then sell, barter, trade, give or transfer it to anyone else, serial numbered or not.

If you do, you just became an unlicensed manufacturer, and that is a federal felony.
Thank you.. That's what I needed to know...
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Old 11-22-2017, 06:49 AM   #12
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It's not quite that cut and dried.

A letter purporting to have been written by an Enforcement Specialist at the ATFE Firearms Industry Programs Branch in December of 2016 states the law quite differently. The letter states that "Such seller needs to ensure that he/she is actually selling a firearm that was previously made for personal use and that he/she is not engaged in the business of manufacturing without a Federal Firearms License (FFL)." The letter goes on to make the statement that "there may be State laws that pertain to this activity".

The issue is one of intent: If you manufacture a firearm with the intent to sell it, and don't have an FFL, you are an unlicensed manufacturer and in violation of Federal statute.

If you manufacture a firearm for your own personal use, and decide later to sell it, you are not. Don't ask me what "later" means as I've never seen any legal definition or case law that defines how much "later" one can decide to sell it. Consult qualified counsel.

For what it matters, I've searched Federal law pretty thoroughly and nowhere have I found a Federal or State statute or even an ATFE ruling that says what NYECOGunsmith asserts regarding the sales/transfer/etc. of a firearm previously made for personal use. If there is one, he can post it for the benefit of all. Unless such a statute or ruling exists, you are not prohibited by law from doing so, you are only prohibited from manufacturing a firearm without an FFL for the purpose of selling it.

Now you have the fun of deciding whether 27 CFR 472.92 applies to you if you are not a Federal Firearms Licensee. This section describes the markings that a manufacturer is required to place on a firearm. Living as we do in a state that does not require firearms transfers to take place through the medium of an FFL, this section isn't very enforceable - but the way I read it, once the firearm is being sold and no longer "for personal use" you, as the manufacturer, are required to so mark the firearm. Mind you, that's my opinion and worth what it costs. Also bear in mind that Nevada law may have something to say about this. Do your own research.
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Old 11-23-2017, 06:08 AM   #13
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I sold the shop and left the business back in 2004, and retired as a Fed a year later, and there are some letters from the BATFE from 2015 that give opinions on the laws regarding manufacturing firearms, however they appear to be just the BATFE's opinions on the law, and that holds no water whatsoever, even though in the past BAFTE has (and still does) think that they have the right to interpret the law and then enforce it as they see fit.

What I was remembering is the following, maybe it has changed since 2004, but as far as I can tell, this is still the law:

U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 44 › § 923
18 U.S. Code § 923 - Licensing


a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. The application shall be in such form and contain only that information necessary to determine eligibility for licensing as the Attorney General shall by regulation prescribe and shall include a photograph and fingerprints of the applicant. Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business, as follows:.......................................... ....

Back when I was a federal agent, with an agency other that the BATFE however, in talking with the folks in the compliance section of ATF as it was known then, (we shared a building at the time) they mentioned having arrested a fellow in the next small town over that they learned was selling firearms he had made for his own personal usage many years earlier, the total number of guns he sold in the course of a year was as I recall just 3.

I asked how they had learned of this, they said one of their agents heard him talking about it at a gun show. So keeping your mouth shut if you do build and sell a gun and don't have a solid guarantee of what the law regarding those actions is, would seem to be a prudent path to follow.

We, as field agents of any federal agency, don't get to interpret the law, (although admittedly many try to do just that) we just apply it as we have been trained and let a judge interpret it , and along with possibly a jury, decide if the letter of the law has been violated or not.

From BATFE's website I found this in their FAQ section:

"What is ATF doing in regards to people making their own firearms?"
An individual may generally make a firearm for personal use. However, individuals engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution must be licensed by ATF. Additionally, there are certain restrictions on the making of firearms subject to the National Firearms Act.

Last Reviewed May 14, 2015
And............

Any person "engaged in the business" as a manufacturer must obtain a license from ATF.
 The term "engaged in the business" means— (A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.
Last Reviewed May 14, 2015


The problem for we as enthusiasts, possibly running afoul of the law , stems from an agent believing that YOU are engaged in the BUSINESS of manufacturing and then you having the burden of proof that this was a "one time sale", or that it is not a business as some other statute defines business.

The get out of jail free card might be the verbiage "As a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured".. What and who defines what a "regular course of trade or business, etc., etc. " is, and again that's going to be a judge and or jury I think.

So maybe you CAN build a gun for yourself and then sell it, barter it, etc. without violating the law, but since it all hinges on semantics and the interpretation of words, I think I will hang back and let someone else be the test case.

But I do hope Grumpyoldretiredcop is right and that I am wrong, it should, in my personal opinion be that way (build it and be able to sell it, but not as a regular livelihood or business, etc. ) , but at this point I don't know which way it really is, now there is doubt in my mind about the subject.

If we can figure it out for sure and for certain, I intend to go back and delete all my posts regarding what I currently believe the law to be so that I don't confuse folks further down the road.
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Old 11-30-2017, 09:18 PM   #14
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What are the best quality makers of 80% AR lower receivers?

Which is better; poly or aluminum? (I would think the aluminum is better)
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Old 11-30-2017, 09:39 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by usmcnye View Post
What are the best quality makers of 80% AR lower receivers?

Which is better; poly or aluminum? (I would think the aluminum is better)
That one's a lot like, "Which is better, 9MM or .45?" There are proponents of both types. I've completed both types. The questions would be what use you plan to put the receiver to, what tools do you have available to complete it, how much tool/machining knowledge you have. It's easier to mill polymer than aluminum but polymer isn't as durable as aluminum.

The polymer item that I completed had molded bossed designed to indicate where to drill the hammer pin, trigger pin and selector holes - and was wildly out of spec. Luckily, I had a jig on hand and by removing those bosses and using a jig on my mini-mill, I was able to turn out a perfectly usable receiver. Watching the material flex as I machined it, I didn't consider it for anything but a dedicated rimfire AR, but that's just my opinion based on one sample.

As for who makes the best 80%, I have no opinion since I haven't done one in a while. The one thing I'd suggest is that if you can personally examine it before buying it, check the mag well to see if the magazines that you want to use drop freely. A couple of aluminum 80%s that I've gotten needed the mag well enlarged - a tedious job with a file.
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Old 12-01-2017, 01:03 AM   #16
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https://www.80percentarms.com/collec...ca-compliant-2

I don’t know if this is exactly what you’re after, but it’s an option.
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Old 12-01-2017, 01:46 AM   #17
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Appreciate your comments about poly (confirms what I thought).

I would like to know what is considered the top of the line best quality (price is not the most important factor, I am not looking for the cheapest but the best). I have looked at Brownells, Midway, etc. I would also purchase the most precise jig, preferably from the same maker.

Appreciate the input; absolutely no need for California compliant, although I have built an off-brand "bullet button" AR lower receiver several years ago. Left CA years ago, I was not compatible with their politics nor the severe property taxes for the many things I did not support.
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Old 12-01-2017, 03:54 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYECOGunsmith View Post
If we can figure it out for sure and for certain, I intend to go back and delete all my posts regarding what I currently believe the law to be so that I don't confuse folks further down the road.

If you want to take a single incident and say one is doing it for a business, you need to look at other things too. You could never sell a gun because you are suddenly in business. Forget just the 80% side.

The business terminology is the same in dealing in firearms. If you sell one here and there, they would have a hard time saying you are manufacturing. Just like selling and buying guns here.

If you are taking orders or having those scary build parties, the guys may come knocking and ruin your fun

I have a few of the ones that were made in CA which were raided by the ATF. The biscuit polymer ones with the indentations for drilling was too much for the ATF to allow. Still need to complete one....
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