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Old 04-05-2014, 08:55 PM   #141
Bulleteater
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Originally Posted by Gunhand View Post
You want everyone to advance with technology EXCEPT law enforcement. I guess police shouldn't take advantage of better body armor, or vehicles that can withstand gun fire from suspects? So it's unfair that an officer should have a vest that will stop a major caliber rifle round? Oh thats right, anyone can buy them, but if the police use them, it's called "militarization".
NH Shootout was a game-changer for cops. Today, the heavy hardware (MRAPs, Tanks, etc) is visual proof that cops are here to win at all costs. Again, it's the Us vs Them attitude on display. "We will win, even if we have to destroy your home, and drag you naked into the street."

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Originally Posted by Gunhand View Post
I especially love your use of the "Gear Queer" comment. I can't tell you how many times over the years I have heard anti-gunners use the term "Gun Queer" when referring to law-abiding firearms owners. Did you get that one out of the Sara Brady or Diane Feinstein playbook?
Negative. Believe it or not, the term "Gear Queer" is ALSO used quite often by the gun community, specifically the training community. In fact, the first time I heard it was during a training course, some years ago. "Gear Queer" in this context refers to a gun-owner who is overly-fixated on equipment (weapons, accessories, anything included in his load out, etc). IOW, a "Gear Queer" is more focused on his Hardware, often at the expense of his all-important Software (training on how to use the weapons and gear, and developing a proper Mindset).

For the purpose of this thread, the Software aspect is key, and it relates to the kind of training these cops get when they were in the academy.

Back on topic, we look at these APD cops in this video, and lots of questions arise related to Mindset. When you watch heavily-armed cops nailing a homeless man with flashbangs, bean bags, tazers, attack dogs, and finally lethal rounds (even as the victim had his back turned to them!), one has to wonder what kind of Software these "cops" carried with them, from their academy days, into the world? What was ingrained in them during their training?

I would argue that when you combine military-grade Hardware with aggressive, ingrained "shoot first and ask questions later" Software, you get these APD shooters. You get the modern day Robo Cop: stone-cold Killers with badges.
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:30 PM   #142
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What I think is being convoluted by many in this discussion is the idea between having the gear and the mindset (as Bulleteater stated) implemented when using the gear; as demonstrated by LEO in cases of excessive force. As an example, do you really need three armored vehicles, one of which is a tank for a stand-off in a residential neighborhood? I get officer safety, but at what point is this merely elevating the situation as the person inside is seeing a literally invasion force mounting outside his sheetrock home, not a doomsday bunker or Federal bank he just knocked over. It goes back to mentality. To the original post of this thread, can you really say the flash-bang was needed or didn't elevate the situation unnecessarily in that instance caught on film?

Here is an example of the newer "mentality" sweeping in to the lesser well-known levels of law enforcement. The entire county barely has 30K people among 11 different communities, the biggest being 10K, for just under 4k square miles. This is Forest Service, not state police,county sheriff or a part of a narco task force on patrol for illegal grow and cook camps in the local forest/wilderness. For reference this incident took place 60 miles north of the stop leading to forced rectal exams and the state paying a $2 million settlement over recently.

http://www.scdailypress.com/ee/silve...e=art&index=02


Quote:
“We were about 30 yards off (Forest Road 858), and were not shooting across the road,' the man, who asked to not be identified, wrote. He said he refused to move away from his vehicle, as the officer demanded.

“I felt like the safety of my family was being threatened at that point, because the officer wasn’t able to give me just cause for his request. ... He threatened to ‘put three holes in (my) chest.’ I made it clear that I wasn’t a threat, was unarmed, and so the aggression on his part was unnecessary.'

The officer “pulled out his Taser and told me to lie face down (while handcuffed) in the dirt,' the complaint states. “I complied with his aggressive tactics, while my fiancée had to take our son away to shield him from the erratic behavior the officer was displaying.'

The man said the officer did not allow the woman to record the incident with the camera on her cellphone, as he “searched my pockets very roughly and disrespectfully, tearing off a belt loop in the process.'
...

Though the man did not consent to a search, he said he “complied with (the officer’s) unwarranted demands, under threat of physical harm, and did not threaten him in any way.'

The officer issued a citation for “threatening, resisting, intimidating or interfering with a forest officer.'

According to the complaint, Forest Service officials said afterward that the officer’s lapel camera had malfunctioned, so the incident had not been recorded.

“I felt that (the officer) abused his authority as a public official, and caused my family unnecessary stress and fear,' the complaint states.
Here is a local (Bunkerville, NV.) example that may have more not so good results for all involved soon. Obviously it's not a clear cut situation since the rancher is accused of breaking the law...for cattle grazing.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/251686...r-public-lands Added: removal underway, some public land closed for "public" and operational safety. http://www.mynews3.com/content/news/...sP_Z0nJfQ.cspx

Quote:
Dozens of armed federal officers are preparing for a showdown with a Nevada cattle rancher regarded by some as an outlaw and a hero by others.
...

Miles away, just off the interstate, another fenced area is the where media are allowed. Armed agents in trucks form a wall to prevent anyone from approaching what resembles a military staging area, the heart of the Bundy roundup operation.
...

Environmentalists forced BLM's hand by threatening to sue in federal court. The bureau will pay nearly a $1 million to a private contractor to round up Bundy's cows, but with dozens of government agents positioned all around the area for what might take weeks or even months, the true cost could be much higher.
So it takes dozens of state/federal law enforcement agents for a cattle round-up? They aren't even the ones doing it, they are there in addition to the contracted company who is tasked with the situation. If ranchers had a million dollars to blow every time they brought in their herds, beef would be about $25/lb at the store right now. Last time anyone I knew that had a ranch had 4-5 cowboys on horse back with one side arm and a 30-30 or 30-06 for coyotes, bear or one of the roving wolves in the area to bring in their herds. They were protected by wrangler jeans, brush poppers shirts and Stetson hats and some snake bite (maybe) resistant boots. Not m4's, shellback banshee plate carriers and 5.11 pants.

So again it's not the armored toys, the unreliable and overly high maintained "donated" MRAPS or that most SWAT teams are outfitted better than the average platoons doing patrol in Afghanistan. It's the mentality that is developing and being implemented with it that bothers people more than anything. The guys overseas appear to have more stringent rules of engagement orders than local PD and this is what's ultimately being called into question.
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Old 04-06-2014, 03:14 AM   #143
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He was dying to be the tactical operator his dressed up AR told him he was....
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Old 04-06-2014, 03:37 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulleteater View Post
NH Shootout was a game-changer for cops. Today, the heavy hardware (MRAPs, Tanks, etc) is visual proof that cops are here to win at all costs. Again, it's the Us vs Them attitude on display. "We will win, even if we have to destroy your home, and drag you naked into the street."

It is you think it is "us against them" when you think that law enforcement officers should risk their lives by not using a piece of equipment because it makes people feel it's " The police are too military"? So to make you "feel" better, an officer should just walk right up to the door and tell the bad man to stop right? No matter if he gets killed just like officer Henry Prendes did in 2005. Obviously you are not a fan of police when you ask them to take unnessary risks like that.

You talk a lot, and paint all police officers with the same broad brush that the anti-gunners use when a nut uses a gun illegally!



Negative. Believe it or not, the term "Gear Queer" is ALSO used quite often by the gun community, specifically the training community. In fact, the first time I heard it was during a training course, some years ago. "Gear Queer" in this context refers to a gun-owner who is overly-fixated on equipment (weapons, accessories, anything included in his load out, etc). IOW, a "Gear Queer" is more focused on his Hardware, often at the expense of his all-important Software (training on how to use the weapons and gear, and developing a proper Mindset).

For the purpose of this thread, the Software aspect is key, and it relates to the kind of training these cops get when they were in the academy.

Back on topic, we look at these APD cops in this video, and lots of questions arise related to Mindset. When you watch heavily-armed cops nailing a homeless man with flashbangs, bean bags, tazers, attack dogs, and finally lethal rounds (even as the victim had his back turned to them!), one has to wonder what kind of Software these "cops" carried with them, from their academy days, into the world? What was ingrained in them during their training?

I would argue that when you combine military-grade Hardware with aggressive, ingrained "shoot first and ask questions later" Software, you get these APD shooters. You get the modern day Robo Cop: stone-cold Killers with badges.
Break out the broad brush, because Bulleater said all cops are "stone cold killers"!!!

With all this knowledge you profess of how an officer should react in a given situation, why don't you try and help law enforcement by training them properly. You obviously have the magic solution to this, so why not share it? You talk a good game, why not apply it and help your community? I can guarantee if you can come up with a viable training solution, law enforcement agencies would pay you millions of dollars for it!

If you are SO sure that you have the answer, then SHARE IT!! I will personally help you get your new training program in front of the International Association of Chiefs of Police, one of the largest police organizations in the world. The IACP is usually the litmus test for police training.

I can also assist you in presenting it to the National Tactical Officers Association. Another organization that regulates law enforcement tactical training. So there is the offer, either share your ideas on how to fix the problem with a viable training program, or exercise your right to remain silent!
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Old 04-06-2014, 04:46 AM   #145
Bulleteater
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Originally Posted by Gunhand View Post
It is you think it is "us against them" when you think that law enforcement officers should risk their lives by not using a piece of equipment because it makes people feel it's " The police are too military"? So to make you "feel" better, an officer should just walk right up to the door and tell the bad man to stop right? No matter if he gets killed just like officer Henry Prendes did in 2005. Obviously you are not a fan of police when you ask them to take unnessary risks like that.

You talk a lot, and paint all police officers with the same broad brush that the anti-gunners use when a nut uses a gun illegally!

Break out the broad brush, because Bulleater said all cops are "stone cold killers"!!!

With all this knowledge you profess of how an officer should react in a given situation, why don't you try and help law enforcement by training them properly. You obviously have the magic solution to this, so why not share it? You talk a good game, why not apply it and help your community? I can guarantee if you can come up with a viable training solution, law enforcement agencies would pay you millions of dollars for it!

If you are SO sure that you have the answer, then SHARE IT!! I will personally help you get your new training program in front of the International Association of Chiefs of Police, one of the largest police organizations in the world. The IACP is usually the litmus test for police training.

I can also assist you in presenting it to the National Tactical Officers Association. Another organization that regulates law enforcement tactical training. So there is the offer, either share your ideas on how to fix the problem with a viable training program, or exercise your right to remain silent!
Gunhand, I'm trying to decipher your reply above, it may take me a while...
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Old 04-06-2014, 04:51 AM   #146
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Gunhand, I'm trying to decipher your reply above, it may take me a while...
Nothing but the english langage used to reply to your post! Shouldn't be too hard for an "expert"!!
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